Self Training vs. Paid Training


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By MN_Waterfowler - 5/29/2012 6:27:50 PM
I myself have always trained my dog, simply because I have the freedom of owning a private hunting lake. My buddy who is always trying to out do me, got the same breed (but male) and paid over 1000 dollars to train him. Unfortunatly for him, the dog is still a non hunting dog compared to my little female who's ranked number one in my county. So now hes disgarded that dog and got a chocolate lab puppy. I told him I should train him but hes still going to pay the money at the same place. My question for you all, is do you prefer to train you dog or send them away to school?
By Base - 5/29/2012 8:59:13 PM
Well , what do mean by 'disgarded' ?

I myself prefer to train all my dogs, I look at it this way, if a guy cant spend 15mins to a 1/2 hour on his dog he shouldnt have one period. any dumbass that throws money at getting a dog trained is just lazy. Im not surprised he threw the dog away. That a**hole needs an ol' fashon beat down. Its not the dogs fault his master is a lazy dumbass.

just my 2 cents.
By scofo35 - 5/29/2012 9:05:55 PM
I agree with Base, I train my dog. If you don't have the time to train you're dog initially then you aren't going to have the time to keep him trained and all that money is wasted. Plus you know you're dog in and out and get the satisfaction of training. I love training my dog, why would i pay someone to do what I love for me?
By kghops - 5/29/2012 10:00:02 PM
How does a dog get ranked #1 in a county?  Just curious.  That's something I've never heard of.

As far as training goes....I do my own training.

Kg
By Pit Boss - 5/29/2012 10:34:36 PM
You said that he is always trying to out do you. Does it bother you that he is having a pro train the dog or is it that he may end up with a better dog that bothers you? Could you be just as guilty at trying to out do him? Did he tell you why he didn't want you to train him? 
But seriously,
Some people do not have the time, patience or knowledge to train a dog to the level they want. What's the difference between sending a dog off to get it trained versus buying a started dog? If it's someone that I hunt with, and they are unable to train a dog, I would be happy that they sent their dog to a pro to have the training done correctly.  After all,  when we hunt together, I sure don't want his dog losing my banded bird.
How much training would you expect for $1,000.00? If you got your basics done for $2,000.00 that would be a steal. The original poster mentioned that they had the same breed. He didn't mention though if they have the same bloodlines. Just because you have a retrieving breed doesn't guarantee you anything. Some dogs wash out (don't make it). 
Do you know why people pay mechanics to fix their cars? Because they don't know how to. But we all still drive cars. Do you know why people pay trainers to train their dogs? 
What kind of tests are you running that they rank dogs in the county?
By Base - 5/30/2012 12:27:15 AM
Dogs, are not cars Pit.
By Pit Boss - 5/30/2012 6:44:41 AM
Base (5/29/2012)
Well , what do mean by 'disgarded' ?

I myself prefer to train all my dogs, I look at it this way, if a guy cant spend 15mins to a 1/2 hour on his dog he shouldnt have one period. any dumbass that throws money at getting a dog trained is just lazy. Im not surprised he threw the dog away. That a**hole needs an ol' fashon beat down. Its not the dogs fault his master is a lazy dumbass.

just my 2 cents.


Where do you get that the owner is a lazy dumb ass? Why does he need an old fashion beat down? I didn't see anywhere in the original post where he said that the owner doesn't have the time to train a dog. The only thing for sure that I got out of the original post was that the guy didn't want his buddy to train the dog. Without knowing the guy, I would lean more toward him being a smart man instead of a dumb ass. I wonder how many dogs has the OP trained and how many dogs has the pro trained? There must be a reason why he didn't pick his buddy to train the dog? 
By MN_Waterfowler - 5/30/2012 8:58:59 AM
O boys no need to start getting this forum heated up. This post was to give the pro's and cons of what I previously mentioned. My dog is rated number 1 in the county, because every county competition (for the last 4 years) we have had that is waterfowl related shes number 1. No I am not guilty of being jealous that he might have a chance to out do me and my dog. I love the guy like he's my brother and always welcome new challengers. My point is getting to what one poster said. If you have time, working with your own dog is much better then forking out cash for a trainer to do it. You get to have a deeper understanding and bond with your dog. You know their strengths and weaknesses. Everyone can train a dog, its not rocket science. However, I just stated my buddy doesn't have time to train him, but I do. I just didn't get the ideal through my head that he would go back to the same place and same trainer after one dog failed out and became a nitendo dog.
By kghops - 5/30/2012 9:17:10 AM
Cool! What county are you in?  I've over in Wisconsin and people ask me about tests in the area quite a bit, so if they are open to others, let me know.  I could get some more folks possibly involved.

By the way.  I train my dogs.  Did I mention that?  

Kg
By Tim Price - 5/30/2012 11:04:14 AM
Not sure where to start on this one.  To the original poster, as Pit said having the same breed means nothing. The breeding matters.  Also $1000 to train a dog is nothing. That's only a couple months at best with a decent pro and almost every pro I know wants a dog at least 3 months.

To the poster that thinks anyone who sends a dog away for training is a lazy dumb azz....really? And 15 minutes to train. Training takes a lot longer a day than 15 minutes.  I've sent my dogs away for various reasons. Once when I had a great dog but was new to retrievers. I wanted him to be all he could be and I was over my head. That was before every Tom Dick and Harry had Lardy videos. Here's an old post from here about what happened back then:

The first dog I sent away was for a winter trip. He left in December When I picked him up in April, the trainer had a dog out and I was blown away at what he was doing with him. I thought "I cannot wait until my dog can do that." He put the dog up in the truck and asked me what I thought of my dog now. I about lost it as that was MY dog. He was gone 4 months. When he left he would not sit on a whistle. I had put him through OB and FF myself. The FF was solid but I didn't know squat about an e-collar and really not enough about OB (obviously) at the time . He came back running basic blinds.

So in 4 months, he re-did FF, finished up OB, collar conditioned the dog, ran thru pile work, T-work, pattern blinds, swim-by's, channel blinds, etc. If your dog has the talent, it's amazing what can be accomplished on a winter trip with a good pro. They are being trained on a couple set-ups a day plus yard work EVERY day. Some may take 1 day off a week. They get a ton of work done especially if they are not running trials.

I also sent my current dog away. She had a snafu with CC and CC isn't something you want screwed up. I had planned on sending her for the winter as my schedule from Jan - Apr is crazy. It was late Sept and she left a little early. I did plenty of the water work with her (cheating singles, channel blinds, etc) after she came back so I knew what I was doing training wise then but I knew I couldn't give the time necessary and wanted to get her to her potential.

Below is another post I did a long time ago regarding this subject.....   

If you also have Lardy's stuff and can handle teaching Basic OB stuff and FF, you can be sending the dog off at 7-8 months in a more advanced state of training.  Basic OB and FF really are not that diffficult for a newbie these days with the good training materials and online help from places like this, RTF, etc.  Doing it that way gets more bang for your buck as the trainer starts with CC and is into the fun stuff quicker.

As to the poster asking why he doesn't want to do it himself....

I know what I'm doing and sent my last dog off at 7.5 months when CC was going on. A knowledgeble full time trainer following a Lardy-like program can do in 3-6 months what can take you 1-2 years.  They are getting 2-3 set-ups in a day plus yardwork. You will do 1 thing per day if you are lucky. Life is too busy for most of us. IMHO, they aren't with us very long and I want them finished as soon as possible so I can enjoy running them. Don't get me wrong, I also enjoy those training moments when you se the lightbulb go on and I did a good amount of the training on my dog. HOWEVER between 6-12 months of age, their minds are like sponges. They can absorb so much more in training then most understand. Normal people with kids, jobs, and life related stuff to do cannot spend the time on the dog that a full time pro can.

That's just my .02
By MN_Waterfowler - 5/30/2012 4:27:21 PM
Well said last poster, thats what I was trying to aim for. Hops, check you local county fairs. Also try out for the Minnesota Game Fair. I bet Wisconsin has one as well.
By Pit Boss - 5/30/2012 8:07:47 PM
What kind of tests do they run at a county fair?

Base,
Most people can fix their own computer, I cannot. I had to delete Adobe Bridge and PS and reinstall them the other day. If it had been a bigger issue than that I would have called a computer pro. With your logic, does that mean since I don't know how to fix a computer I shouldn't have a computer? Sorry if the mechanic analogy didn't work for you.

If you are opposed to competing against people that don't train their own dogs, I would recommend not entering a field trial (not the counties best dogs but nothing to sneeze at either:D).
By kghops - 5/31/2012 8:22:19 AM
MN Fowler,
I'm very well aware of the game fair. Been there many times.  
You've done well there I'm assuming?  Which events?  
Wisconsin may have something like that, but it's not as close as the Game Fair is to me where I live.
Which county fairs have competitions and what do they entail?  Just trying to learn here.

Kg
By Tim Price - 5/31/2012 8:51:59 AM
Pit Boss (5/30/2012)

If you are opposed to competing against people that don't train their own dogs, I would recommend not entering a field trial (not the counties best dogs but nothing to sneeze at either:D).


Thanks Pit. Now I have to call my computer expert to get my breakfast shake removed from my laptop. Classic.

Oh and I got the mechanic analogy.  My wife's a CPA so I don't do my own taxes.  Does that make me a lazy azz? LMAO
By Jeff - Mars - 5/31/2012 10:40:37 AM
If you are training your dog yourself how about when you get to the force fetching stage.  I have hear mixed reviews on sending them off to a trainer or doing it yourself.  Any input?
By Base - 5/31/2012 12:48:41 PM
Pit Boss (5/30/2012)
What kind of tests do they run at a county fair?

Base,
Most people can fix their own computer, I cannot. I had to delete Adobe Bridge and PS and reinstall them the other day. If it had been a bigger issue than that I would have called a computer pro. With your logic, does that mean since I don't know how to fix a computer I shouldn't have a computer? Sorry if the mechanic analogy didn't work for you.

If you are opposed to competing against people that don't train their own dogs, I would recommend not entering a field trial (not the counties best dogs but nothing to sneeze at either:D).
 
 
 
 
Hugh?  You keep compairing dogs to non living organisms (inanimated objects)...............Look, I i'm sorry if I pissed you off *scratches head*  I know i am very judgemental and I shouldnt be. I run 3 dog rescues, BRATT,( besenji rescue and transoport)  and ROTT (Rottweiler rescue and transport) and LOTT ...ect.  Every time I hear of a dude gettting rid of a dog, well lets just say it strikes a deep cord with me. can we go get some icecream now? = )
 
I still stand firm on my belief and opinion that I am entitled to.  = )
By Mallard Mugger - 5/31/2012 12:55:14 PM
When attempting FF for the first time, hook up with someone knowledgeable with it.  It's a lot about reading your dog and looking for cues.  Kg got me started on it and we took right off.  Gave me all kinds of tips and what to look for.  It made it a lot easier.  Could I have done it alone off of a DVD, probably, but I doubt I would have had success as fast as I did (i.e. noticing the cues, what not to do, etc...).  FF will take what it takes, I put myself ahead of the curve with the knowledge I received from Kg.  I believe I stopped at his place a total of three times during the whole FF process but I have his email address and I'm not afraid to use it!  :D

With that being said, if someone doesn't feel comfortable with it after doing the research, doesn't have the time to do it at least once a day, and has the money, probably best to send the dog away for FF.  Doing FF yourself will strengthen the bond with your dog though.

OP - each his own I guess.  I know you think highly of him and don't mind the competition, perhaps he's a little more competitive.  I don't know what goes through people's minds most of the time.  I find it much easier to figure out what is going through the dog's mind MOST times.  LOL
By Pit Boss - 5/31/2012 5:11:10 PM
Base (5/31/2012)
...............Look, I i'm sorry if I pissed you off 


Not pissed off at all...I'm just in the camp that if you do not know what you're doing, get some help. I had help with the first dog I FF'ed. What difference does it make if the help is free or you pay for it? If you pay $500-$1,000.00 for a dog, what is better, to pay someone to train the dog correctly or funk it up yourself? I'm off to help a buddy here in a few minutes with FF.

Tim, if that made you laugh come watch my dog this weekend. You'll get a big laugh. I am running in MN this weekend and I am not expecting much. Just like you I have had life get in the way of training. Unfortunately, my dog wasn't lucky enough to make a winter trip. When the water warmed up enough to work on water cheats she poked a hole in her foot with a Thorny Locust needle. Her foot became infected and she lost several more weeks of training. With the birthdays, first communion and spring sports I have really short changed my young dog. I have ran one trial with her and she got an RJ. The nice thing about having a pro train your dog, you won't ever say "I wonder how good this dog would have been if someone else trained her".
When I train my dog it is at least 3 hours of my day. It is a 35-45 minute drive each way to the place I train, I train with several guys and we try to do a couple decent setups.  So please understand that not everyone has the time to make that commitment. Even if they initially do, life throws a curveball. Who cares how you meet your goals with your animal. If you are an amateur and you happen to beat a pro, savor it. 
By Jeff - Mars - 6/1/2012 10:46:19 AM
Thanks
By Swamper - 6/3/2012 9:40:34 PM
think i'll jump in here on this one.  been reading but not felt the need to respond.  however, this thread has relevance to me.  my golden, Sage, will be my replacement for Hunter the Wonder Lab, who passed away last October.  I did not train HTWL initially,  but sent him to a "pro".  She was a fine dog and companion and I had no complaints.  I thought perhaps I would undertake the training of Sage, with help from many sources, including books, the DU forum, the breeder and a Pro who volunteers at the local hunt trial practices. 

I got Sage on Feb. 14th and have been working with him since then, almost everyday for at least a few minutes (anywhere from 10 to 30).  He has developed some good habits and some are not developing as I would like.

I have some confidence that in time, I would have a dog that is competent enough to be a retriever that would reach the levels that HTWL rewarded me with.

Here's why I'm jumping in here.  As you have read in my posts, and if you have good knowledge of training,  A LOT of my comments don't point to a very timely training of Sage.  One thing I am is a realist.  and realistically, having him ready for the opener in October, (by ready, I mean, a dog that is at Junior Hunter level), not that i'm even going to enter him into the "title" game, but that's just to illustrate what i would mean by a certain "level ready".

Could i have him there, maybe....

but my point to all of this is:  I have decided to have a Pro take him for a couple months and get it done, get it done right and get it done when i need (want) him ready. 

i have taken the time to interview on several occasions and visited the training facility and am quite comfortable that this gentleman will do a professional job and treat my dog with due respect in the process.

moral of the story.........i don't see why there would be any debate over whether a guy chooses, for any reason, to send his dog out, or do it on his own.  frankly, i just couldn't see the need for the heated discussion. 

the original poster of this thread stated that he is training his dog because he owns a pond. i would guess that most duck hunters have some access to some water of some kind.  as most of you know, i certainly have "ponds" of my own to train on. i don't see that as THE reason to train a dog on your own. ponds don't train dogs to be become quality retrievers.  training does.  fact is, chucking a duck out into the water and having him bring it back was the easiest thing to do..........didn't have to train him to do that.  :)  dry ground under their feet is when things get complicated.

if water was the whole gig............swamper would be a training guru!!  

whatever you decide, as long as you are happy with your decision......end of story.
By Pit Boss - 6/4/2012 6:15:18 AM
Swamper, you mentioned that you want your dog at junior level before this hunting season. If he can run singles and is NOT steady he is at junior levels. I would want my dog steady before his/her first season or it will be a pain in the ass to fix later. On the bright side, if your dog is doing junior level work (unsteady and doing singles at around 60-80 yards) he is probably better trained than half the dogs in the marsh.
When not if you get your dog a junior title, I would hope you would continue on at least towards your senior title. Oh wait, you have a Golden Right? Be happy with the JH title. JK:laugh: You might want to advance him towards a WC or WCX title. :D JK again (I like poking fun at swamp collies). The nice thing about a retriever and a golden, is that it extends your hunting season. 
The only thing that I disagree with you on is that for me, dry ground is where the training is easiest.
By Swamper - 6/4/2012 2:47:44 PM
steady is certainly key...no doubt.  he's doing well on steady. 

i'm thinking that "when" he gets his junior  (ok, i admit i'm likely to go through with that..) i may have the urge to continue on.  time will tell.  right now i'm just focused on having that swamp collie ready for 1/2 hour before sunrise on october 13th.  :)
By Swamper - 6/11/2012 9:20:57 PM
well. sage is off to boot camp.  i simply wasn't able to keep up with the pace i felt we needed to be ready for october 13.  so............my cute little sucker is off to school.

we went to a hunt trial training saturday and it was there i realized we hadn't gotten much further along since the last one

and.......

as you guys that have experience know, and i'm just finding out, take a dog from your backyard training and put him in a chaotic trial training with 2 dozen dogs, and you quickly realize you aren't at the level you thought you were.

i'm very comfortable with the trainer and i am confident he will treat sage with respect and be able to tap into sage's capabilities. 

i will say however, that not having the little dude lying here underneath my barker lounger is..............................lonely.

please don't tell mrs. swamper i said that..
By taxlaw1 - 6/14/2012 6:07:03 PM
I agree that you should not have a dog if you do not have time to train it. But, I do understand that people may have a tough go at how to go about training. May I suggest that anyone interested in training contact the North American Versatile Hunting Dog Association (NAVDA). These folks are a great resource. They will help you train your dog. Check them out on line. I am a member and can not believe how much I have learned from them. :D
By powderski14 - 6/22/2012 7:22:55 PM
I bought my chessie in March of 2011.  Planned on doing traing myself with some help from the local retriever club.  In July my wife had our son who a week later unexpectedly needed open heart surgery and I lived out of a hospital for a month an hour from home.  Training went well until this happened and after I arrived home and tried to resume he was just set into some new habits he learned while I was away.  Being my first dog I would train for hunting nd after the money I spent on him I decided to send him away to be trained.  He came back a complete different dog .  Sent him away in November and picked him up in feb after my son has his second surgery.  I still talk with the trainer once a week and he's guiding me through the rest of his training.  We have been working on handling and hand signals since his return and although we aren't going as fast as he would with a pro, I am gaining the knowledge to do this in the future with other dogs. 
By Swamper - 6/24/2012 8:22:15 PM
taxlaw1 (6/14/2012)
I agree that you should not have a dog if you do not have time to train it. But, I do understand that people may have a tough go at how to go about training. May I suggest that anyone interested in training contact the North American Versatile Hunting Dog Association (NAVDA). These folks are a great resource. They will help you train your dog. Check them out on line. I am a member and can not believe how much I have learned from them. :D


did you just say that a man should not have a dog if he doesn't have the time to train it?

a man..............should NOT.........have a dog  UNLESS.................HE trains it.

BUT

if you need help contact some online source, not a reputable trainer, but an online source.

question........do you have some financial interest in this online source?

..........should not have a dog               come on dude.  :(
By myrealname - 6/25/2012 8:38:06 AM
i think you should have your posting privileges revoked!
By Swamper - 7/24/2012 7:40:16 PM
Sage training update.

the little sucker is home....

he is in excellent physical condition.   still has the same great personality that he left with....

and his retrieving skills are absolutely fantastic!!!

WHAT A DIFFERENCE!!!!

for all non-believers who think having your dog trained by a pro is a cardinal sin...

think again.

he and i are now moving forward with more advanced skills.  he came back with the tools to easily get his Junior.

we will start at the next available test and do just that.

in reality, i only want a dog that is capable of retreiving my downed birds.  i certainly have that and can develop from here to a higher level of handling.  i needed someone who had the time and patience to repeat and repeat and repeat the basics.  we are over that hurdle, thanks to a pro.
By Honker-Konker - 7/24/2012 11:46:33 PM
I'm training my first lab Hank and I absolutely love it. I couldn't imagine sending him off for 2 or 3 months to get trained by someone else. Sure it can be a challenge to find training time but with what limited training we've done I couldn't be more happy. He has an excellent drive that makes me proud of him. I also think with him being an inside dog he feels like he is part of the family and wants to please me so he works hard to listen to what I say and he has trust in me. He isn't gonna be a field trial champion or anything but he is gonna get the job done when it comes to finding and retrieving downed birds.